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plantain 20 hours ago [-]
Every time I have been in one of these "naturally ventilated" facilities designed to "not need AC" due to "passive cooling", they've been uncomfortably hot.
It just feels like industrial scale gas-lighting, and no one in charge can admit it doesn't work afterwards because too much was spent on it.
Is stacking solar on the roof and AC's inside really so uneconomical?
lostlogin 19 hours ago [-]
It doesn't have to be all-or-nothing. Too many buildings are build with complete neglect of the environment, with huge swathes of glass facing the sun. Then we have huge chillers try to compete and bring down the temperature. A little consideration goes a long way.
polycancel 16 hours ago [-]
As someone who grew up with AC, I was one time in Brazil and got stuck in a place without AC. Needless to say the first few nights was hell. I just couldn't follow asleep. However after few days, my body just adjust to the local temperature, and really enjoyed it. In fact, going into mall with AC just feels too cold for me then. Of course there is a limit to what our body can endure, but there is something to be said about exposing and adapting our body to the natural elements instead of just adjusting the environment to make what is comfortable to our body.
jltsiren 15 hours ago [-]
I live in a place with very little need for heating and air conditioning. If I don't do anything, indoor temperatures vary between 17°C and 27°C around the year. I've noticed that I prefer 24–25°C during the day in the summer and 21–22°C in the winter, and a bit less when I'm sleeping.
When I travel around the US, most places are too cold for my taste. Conference rooms are the worst, as I can't adjust the temperature myself and I often spend hours in them without much physical activity. I guess many Americans don't acclimatize to warmer temperatures, because their summers are uncomfortably hot.
And when I return from long hikes high up in the mountains, even that 17°C feels too hot for sleeping for a few days.
dlisboa 15 hours ago [-]
> I guess many Americans don't acclimatize to warmer temperatures, because their summers are uncomfortably hot.
Yeah. It's very weird/funny hearing how 100 F is almost death to them, when it's really not that bad. Most people where I'm from are practicing sports at 100 F.
dgacmu 15 hours ago [-]
This is so humidity dependent though, so it's probably more useful to speak in terms of the heat index.
I didn't mind 100F too much when I lived in Salt Lake; it was hot but that's what drinking lots of water was for. In Pittsburgh, 93F and higher make me want to curl into a ball and hug an air conditioner. In the 90s the heat index reaches as high as 110 here. Ick.
trhway 12 hours ago [-]
It is also the question of efficiency and productivity in the most generic sense. You've got only one life, and there is no point in spending it uncomfortably sweating while say loosing your focus given that AC is really cheap, whether it is energy required or the hardware itself.
dlisboa 7 hours ago [-]
That’s kind of the point. It’s not uncomfortable to live life in those temperatures if you’re acclimatized. Maybe something you bring up in small talk (“what about this heat?”) but never something that’ll change how you live.
Plus indoor spaces never get that hot due to shade and passive cooling. A little breeze and 90 F is just fine.
zamadatix 16 hours ago [-]
There's certainly a level of acclimation but if it were truly as enjoyable people wouldn't bother with cooling/heating buildings except in the most hostile environments.
OptionOfT 15 hours ago [-]
I live in Phoenix. Very well adjusted to the temperature here. You sweat more. It was 75 yesterday, walked outside, started to shiver. Weird.
joinHNtheysaid 11 hours ago [-]
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xattt 17 hours ago [-]
My mind goes to the “stickiness” and dampness of higher humidity days.
You can blow the warm air around all you want, but it’s inevitable there will be cooler less-porous surfaces that will condense warming mid-morning air, leaving puddles and wet spots.
Maybe this is a regional design where folks are used to this.
mejutoco 7 hours ago [-]
It would be interesting to have more details about the facilities where you stayed, especially before industrial scale accusations. It would improve the conversation.
throwaway198846 19 hours ago [-]
Wasn't a problem in such a building I visited but it had an essentially massive thermal battery (mass) cooled at night.
teruakohatu 17 hours ago [-]
I had an office in one of these buildings. I agree it’s gaslighting. In this specific instance the solution was to block most of the window and work in the dark. Every office was a concrete cave with inadequate lighting.
The upside was that the design didn’t allow it to go open plan.
17 hours ago [-]
drekipus 20 hours ago [-]
I'm convinced there's forces out there who are trying to make these projects deliberately not work so that we can all collectively discredit the idea.
Naturally ventilated airports would probably have issues with fumes. Might not be a great idea.
If I believe correctly the Dyson headquarters was designed to be fairly efficient as well.
My father in laws house was intentionally designed to be naturally ventilated, thermal mass concrete slab in the middle, etc. And it's comfortably cool even on 40 degree days.
daedrdev 18 hours ago [-]
The issue is continuous heatwaves, when you either buy ac or start to die. No passive cooling can help you when the nights stay hot
viraptor 19 hours ago [-]
> Naturally ventilated airports would probably have issues with fumes.
I'm confused. Do you mean from the food places? Those need proper extraction anyway. Or the cars/planes? Then mechanically ventilated airports take the air basically from outside anyway.
rrr_oh_man 17 hours ago [-]
> Then mechanically ventilated airports take the air basically from outside anyway.
This is not how A/C works.
klardotsh 15 hours ago [-]
Depends on whether an ERV/HRV or other fresh air intake system is involved, I guess. In a space like an airport with so many people, you do have to cycle in fresh air somehow, it can’t just be a sealed space.
rrr_oh_man 11 hours ago [-]
Fair point
viraptor 12 hours ago [-]
No, that's how ventilation works. They can be independent and you need both. Closed loop A/C provides no ventilation.
rrr_oh_man 11 hours ago [-]
I don't disagree
isodev 18 hours ago [-]
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athrun 18 hours ago [-]
Funny seeing an article about Reunion island on HN.
I’m very familiar with this airport, and from my perspective the engineers behind the project did a very good job designing a building that can take best advantage of its location. See, the airport is located alongside the coast, and the sea breeze there can be pretty powerful.
Note that this is a new building (dedicated to arrivals), and is adjacent to the original building, which is still in use for departures.
The old building is also mostly passively cooled, and the difference in perceived temperature between the two is striking. The old terminal behaves more like a concrete bunker and can get very stuffy.
In contrast, this new arrival hall feels a bit like you’re on the deck of a ship at sea.
I have plenty of other issues about other elements of the new building, but that part works pretty well!
fouc 19 hours ago [-]
>“Our objective is to maintain an indoor air temperature identical to the outdoor temperature while generating an airflow of 1 metre per second to reduce the perceived temperature for passengers.”
so it's not "cooled" at all
lostlogin 19 hours ago [-]
Thats correct, but warm air that is moving cools you more than the same air when it's still.
excannuk 18 hours ago [-]
At 35 C moving air heats you up. Like in a convection oven.
nitwit005 19 hours ago [-]
> Ceiling fans with a 7.5-metre (24.6ft) diameter help to circulate the air.
Giant fans are rather different than "natural ventilation" mentioned in the headline.
viraptor 4 hours ago [-]
Circulating the air is what happens inside. Ventilation in architecture is across the inside-outside boundary.
comrade1234 20 hours ago [-]
The smell of jet fuel often (not always though) gives me a splitting headache.
l1tany11 2 hours ago [-]
Yeah and obviously it was impossible to put solar on the roof to power the AC because of their vanity roof design. So worse indoor air quality, and more heat and humidity. What a triumph of design!
> Ceiling fans with a 7.5-metre (24.6ft) diameter help to circulate the air. In the 30C (86F) humid heat of Réunion’s wet summers, which last from around November to April, the resulting breeze reduces the perceived temperature by four to five degrees, to almost the same level usually set for air conditioning.
"Air conditioning was a most important invention for us, perhaps one of the signal inventions of history. It changed the nature of civilization by making development possible in the tropics. Without air conditioning you can work only in the cool early-morning hours or at dusk. The first thing I did upon becoming prime minister was to install air conditioners in buildings where the civil service worked. This was key to public efficiency."
I'm reminded of the situation at Verizon in Switzerland ~12 years ago where they didn't have any central air conditioning in the building "for the environment." Swiss summers can be HOT. I've seen 40°C/104°F in my time there. This ended up with a bunch of engineers buying floorstanding AC units for their desks that blew cold air onto them and barfed the resultant differential + work heat out the rear vent. Truly insane.
hollerith 3 hours ago [-]
During the energy crisis in the summer of 1979, President Jimmy Carter issued an emergency conservation plan that mandated air conditioning thermostats in public and commercial buildings be set no lower than 78 degrees Fahrenheit, which is not too far from 80.6 degrees.
The mandate remained in effect for about nineteen months until President Reagan rescinded it less than a month into his presidency.
hyperpape 18 hours ago [-]
> “That is to say that if you reduce air conditioning throughout your life … when you get to 30 degrees in the office, you won’t be hot. In La Réunion, people are used to 30 degrees.”
Your mileage may vary. I live without air conditioning, but when it’s 30, I’m pretty tempted to defect. But I also tend to run hot.
pezezin 16 hours ago [-]
It really depends on the humidity. 30 degrees in my dry hometown in central Spain is tolerable, 30 degrees with 90% humidity here in Japan where I live now is pure pain.
PaulDavisThe1st 16 hours ago [-]
30C here in New Mexico outside is pretty tolerable (super low humidity, 6000'/3000m altitude). 30C in my office when I'm trying to think about anonymous closures is over the line.
pezezin 13 hours ago [-]
That is also true. I guess it also depends on the airflow and if there is a breeze or not, inside the buildings air tends to get stagnant.
17 hours ago [-]
seemaze 13 hours ago [-]
Psychrometrics[0] is a long studied field of perceptual human comfort in relation to temperature and humidity.
It just feels like industrial scale gas-lighting, and no one in charge can admit it doesn't work afterwards because too much was spent on it.
Is stacking solar on the roof and AC's inside really so uneconomical?
When I travel around the US, most places are too cold for my taste. Conference rooms are the worst, as I can't adjust the temperature myself and I often spend hours in them without much physical activity. I guess many Americans don't acclimatize to warmer temperatures, because their summers are uncomfortably hot.
And when I return from long hikes high up in the mountains, even that 17°C feels too hot for sleeping for a few days.
Yeah. It's very weird/funny hearing how 100 F is almost death to them, when it's really not that bad. Most people where I'm from are practicing sports at 100 F.
I didn't mind 100F too much when I lived in Salt Lake; it was hot but that's what drinking lots of water was for. In Pittsburgh, 93F and higher make me want to curl into a ball and hug an air conditioner. In the 90s the heat index reaches as high as 110 here. Ick.
Plus indoor spaces never get that hot due to shade and passive cooling. A little breeze and 90 F is just fine.
You can blow the warm air around all you want, but it’s inevitable there will be cooler less-porous surfaces that will condense warming mid-morning air, leaving puddles and wet spots.
Maybe this is a regional design where folks are used to this.
The upside was that the design didn’t allow it to go open plan.
Naturally ventilated airports would probably have issues with fumes. Might not be a great idea.
If I believe correctly the Dyson headquarters was designed to be fairly efficient as well.
My father in laws house was intentionally designed to be naturally ventilated, thermal mass concrete slab in the middle, etc. And it's comfortably cool even on 40 degree days.
I'm confused. Do you mean from the food places? Those need proper extraction anyway. Or the cars/planes? Then mechanically ventilated airports take the air basically from outside anyway.
This is not how A/C works.
I’m very familiar with this airport, and from my perspective the engineers behind the project did a very good job designing a building that can take best advantage of its location. See, the airport is located alongside the coast, and the sea breeze there can be pretty powerful.
Note that this is a new building (dedicated to arrivals), and is adjacent to the original building, which is still in use for departures. The old building is also mostly passively cooled, and the difference in perceived temperature between the two is striking. The old terminal behaves more like a concrete bunker and can get very stuffy. In contrast, this new arrival hall feels a bit like you’re on the deck of a ship at sea.
I have plenty of other issues about other elements of the new building, but that part works pretty well!
so it's not "cooled" at all
Giant fans are rather different than "natural ventilation" mentioned in the headline.
Who sets their air conditioning to 82F?
Doing this in a tropical country is penny-wise and pound foolish. As Lee Kuan Yew said, you need air conditioning to be able to think in a tropical country: https://awealthofcommonsense.com/2024/09/air-conditioning-on...
"Air conditioning was a most important invention for us, perhaps one of the signal inventions of history. It changed the nature of civilization by making development possible in the tropics. Without air conditioning you can work only in the cool early-morning hours or at dusk. The first thing I did upon becoming prime minister was to install air conditioners in buildings where the civil service worked. This was key to public efficiency."
Italy did! The minimum summer temperature was only 1.4°F less than that. Dunno if they've kept it up. Summer this year was brutal in Europe. https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/italians-sweat-for-ukrai...
I'm reminded of the situation at Verizon in Switzerland ~12 years ago where they didn't have any central air conditioning in the building "for the environment." Swiss summers can be HOT. I've seen 40°C/104°F in my time there. This ended up with a bunch of engineers buying floorstanding AC units for their desks that blew cold air onto them and barfed the resultant differential + work heat out the rear vent. Truly insane.
The mandate remained in effect for about nineteen months until President Reagan rescinded it less than a month into his presidency.
Your mileage may vary. I live without air conditioning, but when it’s 30, I’m pretty tempted to defect. But I also tend to run hot.
[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychrometrics
Big Ass Fans FTW!
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At some point they overused automatic translation for their website. So it was rendered in Russian as "fans of a big ass" ("fan" as in "football fan"): https://web.archive.org/web/20220324070109/https://bigassfan...